I have a 2005 Chrysler Voyager 2.8 LX CRD (UK) 70k miles with 2 possibly related issues.

Have had the car for 2 years now and started getting issues around last Nov / Dec.

The car will start first time every time no matter how cold it is - which is a good thing!

However when the ambient air temperature is below about 12C (According to overhead temp display) and I start it from cold it seems the automatic choke is programmed to cut out after 25 seconds then the engine revs drop, it tries to correct this and I get a 'bouncing' of the revs up and down and then the engine stalls, usually fairly quickly - the colder it is the more pronounced / quicker the stall - even sometimes during the first 25 seconds that the automatic choke seems to be active.

If I keep my foot on the pedal and hold the revs up around 2k for a couple of minutes it is usually OK though sometimes (like this morning) it will just suddenly die when the automatic choke cuts out even with the revs held high.

No matter what I try it will not restart for a few minutes after this so I'm better just sitting there 5 mins without trying, then it will start 1st time again.

2nd problem is on colder days within a few minutes after I have got the car going. If I'm idling at lights or sitting in traffic, etc. then have to give it a good burst of revs to get out into traffic or across a junction quickly, then lift off the accelerator or maybe break to slow down, the revs just drop out totally and the car stalls - I then loose the power assisted steering and breaks - very interesting while negotiating a junction!

This usually only happens on particularly cold days (less than 5C) and once the engine temperature gauge gets up above a quarter it is usually OK. I can also 'manage' to avoid it happening if I have the road space to slowly back the revs off to idle speed rather than suddenly lifting off the accelerator and the revs dropping back down and through the floor.

After it stalls like this it will usually restart immediately and not have to sit for the 5 mins as with the first stalling issue.

It started doing both the above in the middle of last winter (actually notices the 2nd issue first) but I nursed it through to the spring and it has been OK during the warmer months. Looks like the temperature is starting to drop again and I've had a couple of problems starting from cold recently - but it's still not really cold so I need to get this sorted before winter sets in with a vengeance!

It was at an independent garage for an MOT prep last winter and they said they cleaned the 'air intake valve that is part of the choke' (he described some sort of butterfly type valve) but that made no difference to the stalling.

From a Google search I'm thinking IAC valve (is this what they were referring to above?) and/or maybe some temperature sensors somewhere???

Anyone got any ideas??

Thank you!

Anthony.

 

A diesel engine as you describe cannot have a "choke". (You say 2.8 LX CRD).Some can be lightly throttled (like Mercedes) but that is for NOX emissions not cold running. Modern diesels sometimes have injection timing retarded when very cold to stop diesel clatter.

Check flywheel/crank position sensor and cam position sensor as these appear to be the common cause of your symptoms. To be replaced together.

Leedsman.

 

Cheers Leedsman - shows my lack of knowledge of diesels!

All I know is I can time it and at exactly 25 seconds on a cold day the revs start bouncing. I assumed it was something in the ECU programmed to back off 25 seconds after starting and when the revs start to drop too much it tries to compensate, pick the revs up then backs off again - hence the bouncing effect of the needle before it stalls...

I'll go off and Google for diagrams of the engine to find out where these are! I assume they are easy enough to replace but it has been 25 years since I stripped down a Mini 1275 GT and rebuilt it and have barely opened a bonnet since - time to get my hands dirty again..!

 

- if the Air Flow Meter has been eliminated

- what error codes does the 'key dance' show ?

The bad O ring, 'loose' diesel / water filter, and or 'flow back' of fuel are good candidates, they fit precisely your description. Press the hand primer a couple of times, if you can even press it more than once its almost certainly 'flow back'. In this case however it does start - then stop - so its likely to be sucking air into fuel line somewhere, rather than just the 'flowback' issue. Read this.

 

Thanks QinteQ. 'key dance' gives me a P1685. (Took me a dozen attempts to get the knack so not sure if that skewed the result!)

P1685 - Invalid key received from the SmartKey immobilizer module (the thingie in the ignition that makes sure you are using a correct key)
P1685 - SmartKey immobilizer module reports bad key used (this is common if you tried to put the wrong key in!)

Doesn't seem to tie up with the initial stalling but may have something to do with the fact it won't restart for a few minutes after it stalls from a cold start.

If she stalls again when starting tomorrow morning I'll try the 'key dance' before restarting her to see if that gets a different code...

Once I find out wherever the hand primer is I'll give it a go and let you know but this my be after the weekend as I'm working solidly at 2 jobs all this week and Sunday will (hopefully) be my first free time to look at it.

Just to reiterate:

Issue 1 - cold start less than 12C, revs will start to bounce after exactly 25 seconds, ECU can't compensate correctly and car will usually stall within several seconds - the colder the more pronounced the rev bounce & quicker the stall. Holding revs up at 1500 - 2000 for a minute or three immediately after starting usually sorts it out. After stalling it won't restart for a few minutes.

Issue 2 - colder days (5C or less) after starting and before engine temp gauge reaches a quarter. Driving and accelerating no problem, but a quick acceleration from slow / standing start then suddenly lifting foot off the accelerator to slow / stop sees the revs drop too much and car stall. Will restart immediately. Can be avoided by slowly lifting off the accelerator to drop revs back to idle speed slowly.

Thanks for all your help guys!

Anthony.

 

I was having the same sort of thing happening to me. my van was giving the code P1685 and cutting out. Its with a dealer now and I should get it back tomorrow. Cost is going to be £500. £80 for the computer time to find out what was wrong with it. and the rest is fitting and a new Fuel pressure sensor.
Hope this helps
Bee

 

I would take a guess that 25 seconds is the post start heat time of the glow plugs. Once they turn off or the pulse rate drops it seems the engine is having difficulty maintaining combustion.

Checking this should be easy with a multi-meter, measure the voltage to the plugs and see what happens at the 25 second mark.

As to why the engine can't maintain combustion when it's cold is another matter entirely and would require a fair bit of investigation. The two faults are related in my opinion.

Assuming there are no relevant fault codes then start with the basics of compression or leak down test (do this on a cold engine as that is when you are having problems). Assuming the compression test passes then look at the injectors next (getting someone who is competent to test the injectors properly is not easy).

Regards
Richard

Regards

 

- the invalid key can certainly cause the immobilizer to cut in and fuel to cut out, that's its job
- as Richard says you are able to discount for now the invalid key, because once started you are able maintain running with a high RPM

Everything is a process of elimination, easy/self-do/cheap first and pay and can't self-do/expensive last. For myself I'd see a low pressure fuel issue or a confused EEPROM both are good candidates. Eliminate what you can do yourself first.

Disconnect the battery NEG for 16 minutes, reconnect and the car, bangs bumps solenoids and heard while the car checks itself and all BUS's will reset.

Put your key in the IGN in the ACC position and lock and unlock the doors / tailgate etc WITH THE FOB, then get out lock the doors and arm the alarm WITH THE FOB. You have now reset the puters re-married the protection in the key with the car and the FOB with the protection. Now unlock WITH THE FOB get in and start the car - does it cut out ?

For myself I still feel it sounds like a low pressure fuel issue. You park it up, the filter is full and everything works, leakback occurs overnight and the pressure is lost to the LP system You start the car no problem, and then it stops because it has only one bowl of fuel available and no way to refill. Sometimes you can keep it running by revving the arras off it and pulling fuel through. Put one of these 'in line' and you will be able to see the leakback.

The spin on fuel filter is best got at from underneath drivers side and looks like this simply tightening it up [0-ring] can sometimes cure leakback, ditto tightening up the water filter which is the white end. The hand primer is centre middle just between the back of the RAD and the front of the block, and looks like this.

As for the "particularly cold days (less than 5C)" like Richard I've no idea, that's weired, although I certainly do know of one GV where limp mode never ever appears from Easter to November then it happens almost every day for the rest of the year. The keydance will only give the P codes, anything more and you will need it properly read. If you live anywhere near striking distance of ' tfb ' ask him for a reading[s].

 

Wow - very full and informative suggestions here guys. Thank you so much. I live in Northern Ireland so won't be getting to any of you any time soon.

Didn't stall this morning - temp indicator showed 13C when I got in to start it. Started 1st time, then after the initial 25 seconds revs went bouncing between about 750 and 1100 for nearly a minute then settled back to idle speed which looks to be about 850. Kept my foot off the revs in the hope it would stall so I could check the P code but no luck! Was able to drive off fine after that.

QinteQ you mention a "low pressure fuel issue" - and excuse my ignorance here - but why would that only happen when the ambient outside temperature is less than 12C?

I might be able to tighten a few things and replace a few sensors but anything else would be beyond my ability now. Will see how far I can get on Sunday but may have to leave it in to someone more knowledgeable soon - won't be a main dealer though if I can avoid it - can't afford those prices.

Will keep you updated guys - thanks for your input so far!

Anthony.

 

- the bits I've suggested you can self do, the 0 ring and water filter are a matter of getting hold and twisting tight - simples ! The handprimer is visible and touchable, you can do this. The resetting of the BUS and re-marriage of SCREEM/key/FOB is self evident just follow the instructions. Best of luck.
I said " like Richard I've no idea, that's weird "!, I just don't know, one thing you can do yourself berfore you start throwing money at it is assume freezing point [contraction] will open a hairline crack in metal, rubber, or plastic even wider than it does when its [expended] warm. This is something you may be able to check yourself !