2.5 crd 2002 idling rough when hot - possible causes?
 

2.5 crd 2002 idling rough when hot - possible causes?

Hello all

I have a 2002/3 Chrysler Voyager 2.5 CRD manual, 130,000km/85,000miles/12 years on the clock.

Up until recently it was running great, but during the last couple of months, the engine has started idling roughly, but only when hot. As soon as I place a load like the AC or put some throttle, it's fine.

I had the garage check for error codes and only the thermostat showed a problem, so it has been replaced - it needed replacing anyway, as the temp needle had been slowly creeping close to 1000 hrs and the normal operating temp is more like 0830 to 0900.

So here's my thinking:

1. it's not the EGR valve, EGR solenoid or EGR cooler as when idling, that is switched off after 60 seconds

2. it fires up immediately when hot or cold, so it's not the glow plugs or ignition related

3. It runs fine when cold or when hot with load (not idling). In this situation, I assume it would have a higher fuel and air pressure so that seems to balance out any irregularity.

4. The engine oil is fine. Dipstick level is 80% but I can't remember if I filled it up to 100% when I did the oil change. Smells ok and is black (after about 12k miles) so I don't think it's burning and or mixing with any coolant. This would imply that seals are ok. On the other hand if I have lost engine oil... it's could be that I am burning oil - but exhaust smells fine and at high idling revs, there is no smoke.

5. the tail pipe is black and the inside of the tail pipe is carbon rich, but dry - I think this is normal for a diesel. It feels as though there is more smoke, then usual in the exhaust when I accelerate. So I'm thinking that I may have an incomplete burn in one or more pistons. Acceleration is not bad although it feels as though it has gone down, but only by a small amount. This again suggests power loss in one or more cylinders.

Tomorrow, I will check the glow plugs. I replaced them last autumn and I'm wondering if one or more are slightly loose, allowing lower burn pressure and incomplete burn.

My worst case scenario is failing injectors - fingers crossed. How does one check for these. Wouldn't faulty injectors throw an error code?

The other possibility is one or more faulty sensors leading the computer to incorrectly manage fuel/air mix and timing. What sensors would I have to check for this to be the case?

Are there any other possibilities?

Thank you, kkc.

2.8Td Grand Voyager
Hi guys/girls.
Ive been having problems with different things at different times.:confused: It was driving me nuts. I was told to clean the contacts under the fuse box, which I did I even cleaned the ECU contacts and the contacts on the injectors, fuel pressure sensor and the cam position sensor. Basically if it has a connector I cleaned it with contact cleaner and a cotton buds. Wow what a difference. so far not a bit of trouble. it mite worth a try. don't cost a lot.

Your car is only rough when idling, so fuel metering/injection via sensors when accelerating, coasting is ok. Like a voltage glitch here somewhere.
You've done the IPM fuse box contact clean have you. I'm keeping getting someone hitting me on head saying Mass Air Flow meter needs cleaned.

Bee and goggs... excellent idea to clean all contacts, will do so today. goggs, the MAFF is a ceramic disc that based on air temperature changes electrical resistance. So even if it is dirty, it should work. That being said, I will clean it. In fact I have ordered some EGR spray cleaner - spray it into any air passages (just before MAF, just before turbo and just before EGR) and it is supposed to flush some of the dirt and carbon off.

I'll also be running some diesel additif to clean the injectors etc.

And there will be an oil change coming up in a month or so, so I'll flush the engine too with some engin cleaner.

Fingers crossed...!

I've got a 2002 2.5 CRD too and experienced something similar.
The engine runs perfectly well but every now and then (when hot) the car rocked a little waiting for a traffic light like running irregular or on 3 cylinders or something
And also sometimes not always..
Strange..
I suspected some obstruction in the fuel system or dirty injectors so I added a "CRD cleaning additive" (although people told me it wouldnt work :) ) to a full tank and finished the tank riding from France back to Holland, next tank I filled up with the more expensive Vpower diesel from Shell and finished that tank on a long drive. too
Since then I did not experience that "rocking" any more.
So it seems it solved it for me.

Vmaxxer has illustrated one of the characteristics of clogged injectors, a VERY long high-speed run in the order of hundreds of miles is probably as good as actual injector cleaner, the throughput of diesel in the injectors is much heavier than normal, and the pulsing frequency is much higher due to the high speed of motorway/highway driving. The clogging shows up when the throughput is at its minimum as when idling.

I can tell you with BP "ultimate" cleaner-diesel that it costs 40pence extra per gallonUK as of my calculation about 2years ago.

Unclogging the injectors will make a significant improvement in MPG, one of the reasons to keep a permanent eye on fuel consumption. Example:-- My daughter has a 1.9ltr. diesel Vauxhall Vectra-matic which was doing around town about 25mpgUK. After a long trip from Yorkshire to Wales, it's now almost 30mpgUK on the same local motoring here in Leeds.

Leedsman.

I can not compare my "test" with a run without additives or "doped" fuel, but Leedsman is probably right.
The German ADAC concluded after an extensive test with Aral Ultimate and Shell Vpower that they could measure an improvement in fuel consumption en cleaner emissions with both fuels, but Vpower was winner.
However the advantage was so small that they doubted that the effect was justifying the extra costs.

Interesting...!!! I am relieved to hear that it's not just my car that "rocks" when idling. This morning I added some Bardahl diesel additive to clean out the fuels system.

Perhaps this is why in the user manual, Chrysler specifically recommends occasionally or normally pushing/hard accelerating the car whilst driving.

I also noticed that the EGR solenoid makes quite a bit of a noise when it's operating... almost as though the solenoid is pulsing up and down rather than staying in a steady position based on the sigral from the PCM via the relay. I'll test the vacuum and electricals when I get a moment and post results back.

BTW, my economy on this car is 7li/100km. This equates to 40mi/gallon (UK), 33mi/gal (US). These are summer values (summer tires and temperatures). Consumption is higher in winter (winter tires + lower temperatures). These kinds of numbers for me seem to be excellent, given the extra soot and rough idling I am experiencing.

My 2001 2.5 CRD does the same, i have only had the vehicle a few weeks, i have managed to reduce the rough idling by changing the air filter and cleaning the MAF sensor with electrical contact cleaner as this had oil deposits on it, i also put a diesel additive in the fuel to clean the injectors etc. next i am to change the fuel filter, clean out the EGR valve and do a engine flush.

It must be an amazing coincidence, but this morning I started my Mercedes 190 2.3E for the first time in weeks and he was rocking when idling although he had never done that before. :eek:
I took the car for a testrun on the highway and drove it for a good hour on highspeed (~130 km/h). Stopping on a parking lot it was still running a little rough when idling and rocking a little like not running well on 4 cylinders.
I visited the carshop and bought a bottle of Wynns injector cleaner and went of for another testrun on the highway.
After a few miles speeding I noticed a definite increase in engine power and a more regular rev while running 130-140 km/h.
Back from the highway, stopping on a parking lot the car was idling perfectly smooth. And it stayed that way.
I cooled down the car and tested again:
Still running perfect :)

So either it took 2 runs on the highway to clean out the injectors or the bottle of Wynns did its job.
Another possibility could be that I did get some "moisture" in my electric system which took some time to evaporate, but the fact that the car got running better quickly after adding the bottle of Wynns seems no coincidence..
Anyway I am happy, both cars run fine now. ;)

Agreed again, a 'burn out' is good for you - if you don't have time for a round trip to Cymru :

Our cars and speed limits in the UK usually mean we will never reach peak torque RPM, we tend to do 99% of our driving in the 2,000-4,000 RPM range, most around town-ers and school run-ers never get to 2000RPM with their light throttle loads. Its not so difficult even in the 2.8 automatic to 'blow cobwebs' out. Take an already warm car onto a quiet trading estate on a Sunday, lock it in 2nd and give it 15-30 minutes at 4000RPM, it will boogar your MPG average but will cough some cacka up !

A caveat emptor doctrine applies to the above advice, and yes check all levels before and after and watch the gauges like a hawk.

So lots of coincidences. On Sunday I added some Bardahl and the engine idles much better now although it's still a bit constipated...! Tomorrow, or the day after, I'll receive a vacuum pump/gauge so I can test the EGR valve. I already suspect the EGR solenoid. Additive based cleaning definitely helps, but I would like a long term solution. Will keep you all posted...! Regards, kkc.

I read earlier in a post relating to "cleaning out injectors" is not to use wynns in a CRD, I will check back through the pages to see why and what they recommended as a alternative.

I used the Wynns on my Mercedes petrol 2.3E, on my CRD 2.5 I used some Injector cleaner which stated it was especially developed for CRD diesels, but I be damned if I can remember which brand it was :confused:

All the pro-mechanics here in Leeds use "Forte'" diesel cleaner in the fuel filter. Usually £14 - £15 in the small can, but I've seen it as low as £12. Forte' is a South African chemical company.

Leedsman.

I tried redex for diesel engines in my fuel, it didn't make a difference it was grumpy as hell when idling at the traffic lights and loss of power when accelerating off. after 20 minutes of driving the engine just smoothes out and is back to normal again. I have just ran it round the block a few times and pulled up on the road and it was grumpy again when idle, however, after about a minute and a half the idle smoothed out and was normal again. could this be the EGR valve ? as I have read it stops functioning after 60 seconds of idle.

update..... looking closely at the fuel injectors on the top of the engine there is a puddle of diesel and one of the injectors and the supply line that attaches itself to it is wet with diesel. think I may have found my problem. what do you guys think ?

I think you might have found the culprit, at least its a very good suspect

Update: I measured the vacuum going into the solenoid today and this came to 22in HG. So this checks out ok.

The solenoid itself tested ok for continuity so I assume it's ok. I did not test for any current from the relay into the solenoid.

I also manually forced a vacuum into the EGR valve in steps up to 22in Hg and the idling did not improve or get worse. On top of this the applied vacuum was lost after a few mins, indicating a leaky diaphragm. Does this last observation mean that the EGR needs replacing i.e. no point in cleaning? Thx, kkc.

kkc how did you perform the vacuum test and what with ?

hi bruce_uk1. I purchased a Sealey vacuum pump/gauge tester. See
There is a handy PDF (also available at http://www.sealey.co.uk/pdfs/instructions/VS4021.pdf) in the kit detailing common uses and a how-to. If you need I also have the service manual from Chrysler where there are Chrysler specific tests (with and without such tools) and the expected nominal values e.g. 27in Hg out of the vacuum pump.

A good buy...I wish I had purchased a while back.

Rgds, kkc.

Update: used up one can of Bardahl EGR cleaner spray. This was sprayed into the air intake after the air filter and MAP sensor. I was sceptical as I couldn't see how this would clean the EGR since that is not in the flow except until after combustion in the piston chamber. This implies that the spray creates enough energy / heat to burn away carbon deposits in the exhaust manifold and also the EGR system. Hmmmm...! Note, on the Voyager, it's not easy to spray directly into the EGR valve intake..!

MAP sensor was squeaky clean - guess the air filter is doing it's job.

Result: it made NO difference. On the other hand the Bardahl diesel additive did make a minor difference, most likely due to cetane increase.

I know that pressure testing shows the EGR valve diaphragm to be leaky, so next step is to replace the EGR valve. Has anyone done this? Is it straightforward to do this? There seem to be two pipes in the way - one is a coolant pipe and the other looks like it may be from the turbo.

Thx, kkc.

I had a bash at removing my EGR valve yesterday due to the same symptom, I took the pipe off that goes to the turbo. which left me clear sight of the EGR valve. problem is that I couldn't get a spanner or a socket and wrench on the bolt, there was not enough room. the second bolt sits just below the heat shield in which is impossible to get too with a tool. then there is the EGR cooler has the same problem of not able to get anything onto the bolt heads. any advice ?

Bruce... can you try a crowfoot spanner/wrench? The crowfoot may help with the bolts going up/down. Not sure about the bolts going horizontally across (cooler bolts). That space is so tight it's a real pain ita. Can you post a photo? I have the service manual and reading that you are lead to believe it's a breeze to remove the egr valve. Good luck...! And please keep us informed. Rgds, kkc.

Bruce... just found this image on the web. It seems that if you can use the crowfoot on the EGR bolt between the engine block and the EGR, then you could remove the cooler and EGR as one unit. rgds.

http://colorado4wheel.com/images/198...rd_engine3.jpg

Thanks KKC, I have attached a close up of the EGR in situ that I had used, the crows foot would get the first bolt however I think the second bolt is going to have to remove the exhaust manifold cover that surrounds that area which means stripping other parts out to just get to that. I have the tech guide and followed those few steps and its a bigger job than what it says.


But this is only on the presumption that the EGR is my issue. when rpm goes over 2000 it then starts to chug with some loss of power then when stopping and idle it chugs for a minute and a half then stops chugging and smoothes out. the chugging also stops when resuming driving at a steady pace at less than 2000 rpm for about a minute and a half. I can drive round for a good few miles at under 2000 rpm and not have any issues, as soon as it goes over then it chugs.

Maybe check first that

1. the glow plugs are nice and tight - when doing this also check tips to see if any one cylinder is not firing cleanly
2. the injectors are nice and tight

If these are both ok, then we are left with one or two injectors, fuel system, egr...maybe something else.

G'luck. kkc.

I reported earlier that my rough "rocking" idling got perfectly smooth after running a full tank with CRD cleaner additive in my diesel and running a full tank Vpower on long high speed trips.
Since then I did ~3000km on mixed roads (highway/city) and still my car isn't rocking in front of traffic lights any more. :)
So my problem seems solved.

I did some research on injector clogging and some interesting facts came up--

As I knew already from schooldays, absolutely nothing will dissolve carbon. So you can forget cleaner doing this for you. Only consistent heat could burn the carbon in the presence of oxygen to carbon dioxide. Hence the success at unclogging of long distance high speed driving a diesel. This hard carbon-crud alters the spray pattern (often designed with six smaller sprays) and therefore increases fuel consumption. At its worst the injector can dribble un-atomized diesel making for a really bad fuel consumption.

With diesel injectors, a common clogging material is often called "algae" which in fact has nothing to do with real algae at all, but is a kind of slime of diesel constituents getting in the injector. Cleaner will prob. get rid of this.

Most cleaners are a mix of xylene, acetone, toluene, paint-thinner such as a light paraffin/turps. subs., benzene, isopropanol, naptha and some exotic acids. The mix in the cleaner may contain some of these. Naptha is the very common one. Most of these solvents are very cheap indeed when bought separately

You should be very careful what you put in the fuel tank of high-pressure common rail diesels. NEVER put petrol or paraffin in the diesel tank for winterizing...goes the advice I've read. It's not necessary anyhow. Putting perol or paraffin into the tank could cause an injector tip to explode. I suppose they mean the pintle-end. Water in the fuel can do the same by abruptly vaporizing.

Sand in the fuel does not block fuel filters. The particle size is far too big. In fact sand is commonly used to filter drinking water.

So....I would say a long high-speed drive is more likely than anything to unclog injectors -- apart of course by otherwise removing them from the engine and having them professionally cleaned in an ultrasonic bath. This should also dislodge hard carbon, not by dissolving it, but by shattering it with 45KHz acoustic energy.

Leedsman.

Removing the EGR Valve.
 

Hello everyone.

Yesterday, I took out the EGR valve. Bruce-uk1 it's not that difficult. Steps are shown in the PDF here: http://www.own-initiative.com/files/... EGR Valve.pdf

The valve and the connecting pipes were very clean. Who knows if this was due to the Bardahl cleaning. Since after using the Bardahl and having a good long drive (75km) the engine is idling much smoother (though still not optimally), I must assume that some cleaning has taken place.

I tested the valve again and it loses vacuum at the rate of 1in per 9secs. Given that the vaccum supply would be constantly applied and how clean the valve is, I find it hard to believe that the EGR valve is the sole cause of warm rough idling. Thoughts anyone?

However I will replace it given that I can do so now.

One other point, having removed all this, it seems a good time to change the auxiliary heater supply/return coolant pipes, as mine are getting rusty.

I'll post back once I have installed the new EGR valve.

Does anyone know where I can get these parts:

· SOLENOID. EGR Vacuum. Stock Code: 04707863AA
· VALVE. EGR. Stock Code: 05096234AA

I have tried the US based suppliers but they cannot supply export model only parts. And I can't find any suppliers online in Europe except for used parts.

Thanks, kkc

Good question.. For my Mercedes I know several good and cheap online parts sites, but can't find any for Chrysler parts and have to rely on Ebay and such.

installed EGR valve and solenoid
 

A week ago, I installed a new EGR valve and solenoid. The car runs much better now. I also cleaned out the EGR to intake manifold pipe. This is a roughly 1inch diameter pipe and it was about 40% blocked with oily carbon deposits. I found the best way to clean this was with a thin toilet cleaner (the cable type). I attached a sharp piece of metal plating to the end and just scraped back and forth. I then used a heat gun to blow very hot air into the tube (about 500°C) to burn out any crap still in the tube. Most of the crud is in the 90° bend closest to the EGR valve. At the end of this process, the pipe is as good as new...!

Finally, I reset the computer. I understand that it takes a few hundred kms before the computer establishes a new steady state.

Only issue I now have is that the car still smokes (black smoke) when under heavy acceleration. Not happy about this and still not sure as to cause as acceleration is very good, consumption is amazing, excellent. These two observations tell me that the only possibility is fuel / air mixture is not right. Faulty sensor somewhere? Anyone have any ideas?

Changing the EGR valve was not that difficult in the end. Just have to peel away bits and pieces to get good enough access.

I still have some mild rocking when idling now and again. I will be changing the front engine mount as it is pretty much destroyed. Maybe this solves the rocking. Will do this, this weekend with oil change.

Hope this helps.