Rattly thumpy noise on idle
 

Hi folks,

2.8CRD auto 2005 121,000 miles.

This one just jumped out at me, and doesn't sound good at all for my GV. It's a rattle/rumble that happens at idle, give it a little revs and it goes away, under normal driving you only notice it when the revs drop back to almost the idle position. Runs fine, smooth, no issues with gear shifts, etc.
My first suspicion was the auto-box, or flexplate as it sounded like it came from the box casing, however a friendly local autobox specialist kindly had a listen/look for me and used a microphone listener and he doesn't think it's the autobox (The sound doesn't go away when in drive, when the flexplate, etc, would be put under hydraulic pressure which normally is when a flexplate/gearbox fault would change in sound). He listened all over the engine and couldn't pinpoint, he said it sounds almost like it's from the block itself and echoing, so he's suggesting I drop the belt first and see if that makes the sound go away or change at all.
(So firstly, whats the procedure for taking the belt off on the 2.8CRD RHD, as it doesn't look particularly easy to access the tensioner. Best from underneath or the top and just use the right socket and long bar?)

Failing that he's suspecting an injector possibly that's destroyed (partially or not) itself and rattling badly.

Has anyone heard something similar and have any pointers on this one please? This one is making me worried!

He's the recording of it, this is sat outside work so after a 30 minute drive, sound doesn't change on temperatures.


Help!

Good idea to remove the auxiliary belt and check for the noise as there are a few items capable of doing so. Alternator makes a sort of whining noise when bearing run dry. Alternator pulley wheel makes odd noises when interior bearing/spring gives up. Tensioner of course has bearing as well and may rattle and whine.
Your problem that only happens at idle sounds like Pulley methinks.

Well, I've just taken the power steering pump belt off and the serpentine belt and the noise is still there, so looks like it's in the block, flexplate or the autobox.

I'm at a loss now so think I'll have to get it down to a garage and let them get started on it to work their way through, I'm really starting to wonder if something has dropped into the engine.

Read of one example where odd noises were coming from the DMF (are these right letters) exhaust regenerator due to it breaking up inside.

Hi goggs,
Yeah I wondered about the CAT or similar, but fairly quickly eliminated that from my thoughts.

I spent all today taking bits of it apart, ended up with power steering pump and belt off, serpentine belt off.

I then decided to drain the oil and take the sump off and try to look at where the flexplate lives (between the engine and torque converter).
Firstly, I found that the metal housing for the flexplate has been snapped/corroded and gone!

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1487184823

You can see it on that photo, so whilst that isn't good, I then couldn't see any damage to the flexplate, bolts or find any bits of the damaged housing floating around. Not to say that there aren't bits in there but it didn't appear obvious.

I then turned my attention to the sump, and fishing around found these bits of metal:

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1487184864

Now those don't look good, potentially could be anything.

I'm therefore thinking I need to get it to a mechanic, get the head off and everything engine-wise inspected as those bits haven't just appeared from nowhere! I think that's the priority, get the parts repaired.

Then if there is still the noise/issue it'll be onto the flexplate and getting an autobox specialist to take a look.

What are the general thoughts, right way of approaching it? Bits in the sump to me are generally a major bad sign.

Also, is there an easy way to tell if the big end is on it's way? I was looking as closely as I could and gave it a waggle and there was next to no play on it which made me think that's in-tact but not really sure, any opinions there?

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1487185115

Thanks all.

Cracked flexiplate does make odd noises but as you say its been checked. I take it its an outside check as flexi plates have been known to crack where its bolted to crankshaft as well, but not too easily seen here. Think there's a balancer shaft on this engine so may need checked. Those bits in sump might be from a previous overhaul. Was there any fine metal shards in the oil or filings found by using a magnet. If there is engine needs looked at. I'd get that flexi fully checked first.

From internet a cracked flexi is akin to Rod Knock or noisy tappets.

Thanks goggs, yeah have been searching and found a lot on the cracked flexplate.

Thinking though, the flexplate cover has cracked and snapped/disappeared, my thinking is where are the bits/where have they gone, potentially into the flexplate/torque converter housing and rattling/clunking about, which I guess also would sound like rod knock, etc.

Either way the cracked housing/cover needs replacing, so I'm thinking get it to the autobox place and get that sorted and the flexi checked out.

Well I've got further now, but it's very bad news unfortunately.

Took it to an engine rebuild specialist who's worked on the 2.5 version before and he spotted the noise straight away, balance shafts are the problem. Quite common on these VM engines apparently, and he didn't rate the engines very highly at all.
He looked at the bits I found in the sump and said they probably were old o-rings or plastic parts from previous jobs and nothing to worry about, but the balance shafts were another matter, almost a rebuild to replace and correctly fit so he's questioning the worth due to the overall worth of the car.
So I'm back once again with potentially a GV to scrap, cut my losses and move on parting with more cash to get a new car.

This is the balance shaft assembly (Bolts under the main crank, it's what you see visible when you drop the pan):

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1487292268

I'm heartbroken as it's now my second GV that's suffered pretty major engine failure and again doesn't seem anything I could have done to prevent it or anything I've done to cause it. Just unlucky with them I suppose, and now have to weigh up options on a replacement engine, engine strip and repair or just scrap the thing.

You are in the wars mate, no help for me to say so - but I do feel for you and wanted to say so !

Thanks QinteQ, not feeling great about it all now but do appreciate the moral support always welcome when it comes to this!

I'm thinking I might have a punt at changing the balance shaft assembly and redo the timing belt on it to see if I can get any closer.

Here's a question, could I get away with removing the balance shaft assembly completely, put the pan back on and run the engine, all be it briefly to determine if the knock has gone? This would confirm that was the problem and know I need to replace it before shelling out and trying it?

I think you'll find a very nice replacement engine out there in the Engine Kennels. I'm sure one will greet you by waggling its exhaust tail pipe. Or how about another Voyager with MOT problems and good engine. Not so bad if you've got a place to break it.
Good luck and hope to hear from you very soon with your repairs completed or a new set of wheels.

Above my pay grade that one Andy. As you know from my utterances I left the oily bits 35 years ago and went to computer bits, Goggsy or tfb are perhaps a better bet for oily bits. I've always gone full synth + filter @ every 5 years which in my case is only 10-15k miles and ditto the lazy-gearbox 1/2 change @ the same interval because I'm nearer the crem than new car needs and the car still has not reached 70k.

Allpar : The dual balance shafts were put into the oil sump to cut vibration, so removing them and replacing them will lead the (+) vibration and (-) fuel (-) emissions economy & noise. Its that the balance bit of the reciprocating assembly is so expensive as it needs to be balanced statically and dynamically for this to be completely satisfactory that worries me about your thinking.

Box it back up, down again with a couple of 80+kg pull magnets clean out, and back up without the balance shafts might be an acceptable risk - ask the 'rebuild specialist' and get a quote as a starter for 10 for your next move.

As it was it was a noise, not a full catastrophic fail, those bits of themselves look fairly innocuous and the 1/2 0 ring should be recognisable to a 'rebuild specialist'.

Does that Balance Shaft assembly just drop down after removing sump and unbolting. Be interesting to see what's wrong with it, I can only take it one of the cast weights has come loose on its shaft.
So replacement engines are out there or a whole car with good engine and MOT failure.

Thinking about the drive to the balancer unit, gearwheel, how is it connected to shaft, keyed maybe, maybe sheared and repairable. Need to look into this as looks like balancer unit is either not being driven or out of sync.

Andy, Goggsy, self & expert.

My reading of the thread is the expert told [past tense] Andy the balance shafts were (1) the problem and they were [past tense] (2) fubard, I'm happy to be corrected. If that's the case get a price from the expert and as Goggsy suggests look for a good short motor replacement.

The problem with that is no car and works miles away now and finding a good short is RHS as we all know. I used to build jet engines and balance the single shaft myself adding + subtraction how the hell you balance a dual multiplane I've no idea.

Buying a ready cooked refurb 2.8 L Turbo R 428 CRD might be a hard shout but its a starting point .. .. .. all this assumes its the balance shafts and the expert is correct. Best of luck Andy, can't you buy a £300 banger with a bit of test and rent on it to get you over the hump ?

If the shafts are out of kilter try local marine as well as automotive engineers Andy after all - all 4 pots need balancing shafts and I can't see how they can be balanced on a bench rig. 1+4 and 2+3 plus the CAM are gonna have to be paired in sequence tight oscilloscope style.

But an engine off the peg always incurs additional costs and frankly they are never ready cooked rebuilds but simply steam cleaned and farmed straight out. I'd rather invest in my engine being done local if possible but always after proving the part is at fault before thousands are paid for an alternative one with the same or a dfferent set of problems. Get Goggsy to keep a 'peep' on what's going - you are both in a similar geographic area.

I had a major engine failure on my Mercedes some years ago (Valve broken off in the engine) and I found repairs like that always cost a lot more than replacing the engine with a used one.
I've seen 2.5 CRD engines with low mileage for pretty good prices at scrapyards..

In the case of my Mercedes I found an engine for €400,- and building it in the car did cost me €600,-
So maybe that's an idea as worst case solution?

Best engine Complete I can find on Fleebay is at Rochdale, more Newcastle way I think. 77,000 miles with 90 day warranty for £600. Others over Antrim Ireland way that I have had parts sent from but their only bare engines.
Not much if anything in South West Scotland. Newcastle way is the hub for secondhand parts for cars and for Motorcycles that my friend here with the Motorcycle/emporium/museum/scrapyard uses.
Mind you saying that he got a nice Peugeot 207 from a dealer who had cooked the engine very cheap and within days he found a doner complete engine & car only miles away. But more Peugeot cars going around than Voyagers.

thanks folks, appreciate all the info and scouting around, very much appreciated.
I've been doing a lot of reading up and research (as you do!) and have come to a couple of conclusions.

Firstly, my engine rebuild 'expert' isn't so much, he didn't seem interested in doing the fix or looking into it, perhaps not worth it for him (if he does the repair and it fails, warranty and all that stuff).

Looking it up, the balance shaft assembly is what I saw at the base of the engine after removing the sump. To get at it, remove the oil sump feeder hose and I should be able to get the 6 bolts out of the balance shaft.
It is indeed timed as QinteQ states, I've got a timing locking set coming that includes a pin for locking the balance shaft assembly, from what I'm reading (http://www.tooled-up.com/artwork/prodpdf/vs4945.pdf) you drop the balance shaft assembly out, then set it using the pin so it's in the correct place for re-attaching to the engine. It's on a geared cog that sits to the opposite side of the timing belt, etc.
Doesn't look like it's anything more complex to attach and 'time' it to the engine, I can even avoid removing the timing belt from what I can see, but will probably mark it and mark any rotating parts I can so I can re-align when putting back together.
I'm also contemplating taking it off, put the sump back on and start her up (even just briefly to listen to engine noise). Reading the interwebs shows me plenty boy racers have removed their balance shafts and assemblies (or cut their chain drive on the ones that use chain to connect them) to gain the odd 1 or 2 bhp and suffer a little more engine knock at idle, so it doesn't seem an inherently bad idea, even just to test briefly as a visual check may not answer if it's the balance shaft, weights or something in there, if the noise goes then I know I'm onto something and can concentrate on either replacing it, or finding the bearing/fault on it and repairing.

Luckily I'm borrowing my parents car, so I've got the luxury of having the car off the road for a short while (End of March is my deadline) to have a tinker and figure out what needs done.

So I'm going to head to parents house (They have nice big driveway and garage which is where it's dumped at the moment) and get it back on stands, drop the sump off and attempt taking the balance shaft assembly off the bottom, see what I can find.

I agree on the replacement engine though, that may be the next way to go if I can't get much luck on this avenue, trying to avoid that at the minute though as I'm right in the middle of deciding on how much to 'spend' trying to solve this problem other than giving up and increasing the bank loan and get another car.

Won't be until the weekend I can get there and have another look so in the meantime going to be reading up as much as I can

Ball bearings in a cement mixer

Did a whole hour everything including Gumtree with a radius of 60 miles from the Pool. What I found what I expected, very high mileage overpriced crap. Goggsy did the same around his area.

A second and much more informed 'expert' opinion was always needed, trouble is they are investigative and not free. As far as reading what's been written thus far there's not one iota of fact that the balance shafts are at fault. You may have a lead but I'd need a second same diagnosis before spending.

If its a real bag of hammers picking which particular hammer is at fault is a minefield. Is it drivable Andy ? When was your last engine oil change ? Do you 'drop gear' or use kick down often ?As it was - it was a noise, not a full catastrophic fail, it could be anything from a pully to a rattling injector maybe get 5 litres of thick full synth from Amazon and a new filter on it, that £30 quid might lead to a few answers with no other parts bought till a better formulated battle plan is in view. Everything up to this point is based on one 'quickie' opinion. Now I've known about the balance shafts since our V8 days when I was not yet 30 so 40+ years but I've never know 1st or 2nd hand, any single one person with the problem.

The shafts have wear bearings both ends, care, they attach to your timing but is it getting worse / louder ? -, you might get 4 years without it getting worse Andy

Yes it's an issue of taking the engine out to find out the problem. Their doesn't seem to be anything in internet regarding problems of Balance Shafts on CRD engine. But looking back on here, 8th April 2015 at 11.40pm there was a guy mentioned he had a Kia Sedona where the balance shaft drive gear was stripped. I can see this being the only week link in the drive to the shafts seeing that they revolve at twice engine speed. Why this engine has balance shafts is due to its size, like other big Four Cylinder engines, that is the size of those four big con rods that produce the vibs even though engine is balanced. Vertically opposed engines have not this problem.
The Merc M272 engine had/has a known balance shaft problem and as far as I can see they are chain driven and the drive cog to the shaft wears its teeth away, so, well might as well fit a V belt.

Hi folks,

thanks QinteQ as always good ifo, so far I've not spent a penny on it as I've got advice for free and done all the diagnostics myself so trying to cut a few corners out of an investigation from a garage, as you say it's always a paid option so the more I can eliminate myself helps.
goggs, I found a few searches on similar engines (more 2.5 than 2.8) that had a few mentions, and from the initial garage man suggesting them I went for that option. It was an option I could check myself.

So today I went up and took the sum off again, and the 6 bolts that hold the balance assembly on (It also supports the oil intake feed), relatively easy to do just messy and underneath the car for a while.
Took it out, put the sump back on and put the oil back in for a test, started up and SAME NOISE, so I've now eliminated:

• All accessory belts, pulleys, a/c clutch, etc
• Power steering pump and belt
• Balance shaft assembly

Which leaves me with the more major engine parts as the potential fault. So I'm now thinking what my next move is.

One question, could the starter motor/motor gears cause this? If they weren't dis-engaging properly or am I wildly out here? Just thinking of the one last part I can check myself, although removing it won't help as I won't then be able to start up and test!

So other than that, I'm trying to decide what to do next, I guess I now have the choice of:

• Scrap it for pennies
• Try to sell it as faulty on ebay/gumtree
• Take it to local garage, start investigations and pay
• ??

Not looking hopeful this though to be honest.

I've also done a bit more listening to the noise, and I've recognised that it is most obvious at low revs, it doesn't disappear as revs increase slightly, it's still there and does sound a little bearing-like rattle/rumble, but all just a guess. Here's another video I made trying to identify the noise.


https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1488042311

Right then you can go several checks with Balancer out. Check big ends for wear and the noise. Check main bearings but big ends more likely. then there's the little end up in the piston, need to check piston drops and rises with no lag on turning crank.
Read somewhere about fitting Balancer unit with setting pins like an extra timing setting pin. Did you check if balancer was in the right position by using a pin before removing it.
I'm still thinking of the Flexi Plate cracked at crank end. Can you see it with sump off.

Hi goggs,

Yes flex plate was one of the early ones, and yes wtih the sump off I can see it clearly, each of the bolts as I turn the crank, looks to be no cracks or stress on it at all so looks more to be engine-end of things.
(BTW yes, I have the timing kit with the balancer setting pin, I've not put it back on, but doing so you pin set the balancer, set the main shaft to the bolt position and fit it at that)

So, big ends, the noise doesn't get worse or make noise under load (Heading up a hill giving it power) or when I lift off after said heavy load, only when revs drop down to the 1,200rpm range so that makes me think less bottom end (bearings, etc).

I'm wondering, could injectors cause this, more specifically timing of firing of injectors or faulty injector causing mis-fire/bad timing of compression/bang?

Here's an interesting answer:- Slapping at Idle. Loudest at Idle. Calms on Acceleration. No smoke. No loss of power.
Its called Injector knock. Caused by a faulty sticking injector..Only happens at idle but ok all other times. Lazy injector has been mentioned.

Well, my investigations continue!
I went down the injector fault route, so firstly listened closely to each injector as goggsy and others said. Each one sounded ok, clicking in a rhythmic manner and no stutters or change to each one.
I then disconnected the return pipes and fed them into jam jars, monitored them and all four gave a little return but not loads, all about equal, so again don't think this is indicating a major problem with them.

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1488729883

Then I decided to try this, disconnect the injector power one by one and see if the noise changes or stops. I did this by disconnecting the connector on the injector then turning the engine over on the starter (It wouldn't start with an injector disconnected), did this one by one and the noise was still there, so that to me eliminates the injectors as the source of noise.

So that takes me back to mechanical.
I tried listening to the rockers through the rocker cover but the noise wasn't louder (If anything it was quieter) so that doesn't suggest anything there at fault.
This takes me back to the big end bearings or the mechanical parts unfortunately.

Anyone got any more suggestions as I'm running out of ideas, so it's creeping closer to being ditched and moving onto a new car :-(

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1488729883

I'll ask an oily-bits expert, now long retired for a 'listen' favour for you - it will be down to him of course. Runner or on stilts ? and which area of the Pool ?

Don't give Addy + or phone here. I'll open my PM for the 1st time ever after 20:00 tonight and give you my phone number - ring and I'll ask our Jimmy if he will ask John to help with diagnosis.

You're a proper gent, however I fear this will be difficult as the car is currently at my parents place (Consett) on stands and with various bits taken off so getting it to the pool in current state would be tricky.
I'm going to have a rethink of strategy and figure what's next, so hold off on the mech (unless he's up for having a guess over the phone) and will see what I can figure out.
Thanks again, appreciate the offer.

Just got off the phone (1 hr +) with our Jimmy, I'll post the thread to JIMBO and John, then John can give an opinion. I'll offer John a ride to Consett, yes we will bring passport's! but if its in bits and a non-runner its a worse guesstimate than the vids.

Let's then let John read the thread and hear the vid and see where we go from there. I'll leave the PM locked down for now Andy.

Just another quick update, firstly thank you QinteQ as we've discussed elsewhere I always appreciate another pair of eyes and ears on a job, kind thanks as always.

The latest is using the mechanics stethoscope my father and I managed to eliminate most of the engine block, injectors, top and bottom of engine so went back to looking at flexplate and gearbox, gearbox was silent (As you'd expect from a parked up car!) and the flexplate housing seems to be the focus of noise, so we've decided to go down that route.

Ordered a flexplate and casing from Chrysler dealership nearby (Under £100) and we're going to set about getting in there and replacing the flexplate and find what damage is in the flexplate to torque converter housing.
Going to be an involved job, at a glance it's drive shaft off, unbold the flexplate from the torque converter (By dropping the oil pan to get better view/access), drop the auto transmission box down and should then give visibility of the flexplate attached to the main crank and also the torque converter. We should then have a bit more of an idea what's going on in there and what the cause has been.

If anyone has any advice on dropping the autobox and similar please let me know, otherwise it'll be a suck it and see, following the pictures and videos we've found online.

Haven't done one for many many years Andy and always had the luxury of borrowing a full 4 poster and windy tools etc. There's a post on the other forum "neilgibson" who's very recently done 2 off and one on, worth asking there particularly as it includes a failing flex.

I assume you are going to drop and bench the box, inspect, reassemble.I assume you are going to drop and bench the box, inspect, reassemble.As I REM from the olden days nothing much other than hard graft and lots of other bits to remove to even get at parts when its on jacks + stands [full rebuild here]. Torque[ing] the flex should be a 3 stage in sequence whereas the bell is really not a big deal if the faces are good. Its prolly a hard work 3 man job, good socket set and TWrench, 2lb rubber hammer + pry bars, bright light and a spare jack to take the weight when its off the support crossmember. I'm hoping after this it is the flex M8. Try neilgibson for recent pointers lad, , best of luck.

Hi folks,

Well after a couple of days of hard work (Mainly by my father I have to say!) we got the gearbox separated from the engine to get at the flexplate, took it off and it's pretty obvious that's been the problem:

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1491212959

That was ready to let go by the looks of it!

I'm going to write up how, etc, shortly but briefly a few points on getting at the flexplate/torque converter:
* Took hub off, didn't need to take drive shafts out, just undid nut on driver side and allowed it to slide, gave us enough movement to get into the flexplate housing
* Most engine mounts had to come off, so engine had to be supported during work
* Gearbox separated not too bad once all bolts were removed, some nasty positioned bolts, one towards the rear upper (against the back of engine block) was tricky, couple at the top tricky but with wiper tray off that helped, couple of bolts in the wheel well were tricky as metal plate that forms the wheel well got in the way, but a few wobble sockets and it did the job
*Removing starter motor actually gives you the best view of the flexplate itself and the bolts that connect to the torque converter, so ignore going at the bolts from the bottom by the sump, go from the hole where the starter motor fits (Could have left the oil sump on in hindsight!)

It's not fully back together yet, waiting on some new bolts that join the flexplate to the torque converter as they were a bit chewed. We're suspecting somebody has been in here before and done work on this as they look like removal chewy on the bolts not damage, so replace them since we're in that region.

I'll post back once it's all back together and report on how things are!

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1491212960

https://www.chryslerforum.com/forum/...1&d=1491212960

At this stage you can safety predict flex not tone bars then, and it is already the whole circle. 75% of the work and 100% of the diagnosis already done. At the end hopefully you will have your chariot back and better than it was before.

Congrats to you .. .. and those who help you, additionally even though flex is an unusual 'one-off' UK forum users will benefit from this thread if ever they have to face the terror of diagnosis let alone repair.

I'll have another Beer to this result then, but as its getting late I'll have it tomorrow.

Just for complete-ness I've done a write-up of the whole saga, and all the steps I did to diagnose, try out, etc, so it might be useful to others for the future.

Andy Brown's blog: Chrysler Grand Voyager flexplate replacement

It covers:

• Balance Shaft Assembly on base of engine
• Accessory belt removal/replacement
• Oil Sump removed
• Balance Shaft Assembly removed
• Injector return leak test
• Flexplate removal (Separation of the gearbox and the engine)

Thanks Andy.