2.8crd Grand Voyager non start
 

Help!
my 2006 GV 2.8crd has over the past year intermittently stopped starting although with a few turns and a wait it usually always started. anyhow with the cold weather it has now decided to not start in the mornings. My local garage has had it for a week and still no joy. He has installed new battery (always been a problem on this car) checked fuel spill off, pumps and replaced both cam and cam shaft sensor and still no better. as it seemed to be okay once going i thought glow plugs but he has checked them aswell.
any ideas before i commit to main dealer which i fear could be costly?

thanks in advance
Nick

Does the starter operate? Have you checked for water (ice) in the fuel/fuel filter?

My 2.5CRD has done this every winter since I've had it.

When it's difficult to start, when it does fire up, is there a bit of a smoke cloud at the rear?

Mines does, mechanic workmate recons it's injector related (fuel leaking into a cylinder or 2 overnight).

I tried parking the back end up on car ramps overnight incase the fuel was running back but this didnt help.

mechanic (who gave up today for no charge to be fair) says the fuel injectors are okay, the starter is okay, the fuel pressure is good, he has checked tank and okay so how he came up with cam and crank sensors i am not sure but nevertheless he hasn't solved problem.

however as i now have it back with new gel battery and not snowing it is starting although it is a little temperamental. also i get a fluttering noise from behind dash sometimes after starting which i am not sure what this is. i cannot help but think this is both a battery related and fuel related issue which is made worse in winter. it is just a pain as it always plays up just when you don't expect it to.

he did check fuel filter and says okay although i would not mind changing it. is this easy to do and anyone no where it exactly is?

thanks again
Nick

If it's the same as the 2.5, it's underneath, next to the fuel tank.

Mines is a disposable filter inside a large black plastic housing rather than a metal self contained one.

How did he test the injectors? For me to get it done, I'd have to remove them and send them away to a Diesel Specialist. It's not something my mechanic would be able to do on site.

Previous cars I've had give a fault code/engine management light for cam or crank sensors.

I've just learned to live with it, jump start it when it fails to start.

I suppose I should mention that the ECU is looking for a certain cranking speed and fuel pressure before it allows start...

These cars have a real problem with batteries and most people do not get replacement batteries that are capable of doing the job for long. If a battery simply has plates it does not have enough area and therefore not enough initial (10 seconds) power; the battery needs to have spiral cells rather than plates if you want to depend on starting. The VM 2.8crd takes a lot to turn it over and really needs an Optima or similar battery - normal plate batteries simply do not have the initial punch to move things along.

A lot of people have starting problems in the winter because their battery is simply not up to the job.

see last winters battery question in the UK

For starting problems there are quite a few things that need checking

Assuming that no error codes are stored then I'd suggest the following

1st is to look for air in the fuel. The simplest way is to add a section of clear hose into the pipe from the fuel filter to the injection pump. Air in the fuel or fuel draining back down will cause havoc with starting

2nd is cranking speed, live data via a scan tool will show you this

3rd is fuel pressure during cranking, live data via a scan tool is not quick enough to get the fine details of this and an oscilloscope will be needed

If the crank or cam sensors are failing then they should have a stored code and the same goes for the injectors.

It may also be worth swapping the battery out for a sodding great big one and connecting it via fly leads. Jump leads won't work as you can rarely get a decent connection and most are far too thin. Use nuts and bolts on eye terminals to connect the fly leads and make sure they don't short out.

Regards

Richard

Voyager Non Start.
 

Hi there,
A bit confused her on why you fitted a Gel battery, as these of what I have read about are for Caravan & Motorhome lighting support systems. You need the acid plate battery for that instant torque power especially in Winter time.
The Voyager is from reading its spec a Bloody Computer in itself and needs all the power it can get to load up the ECU during cranking speed.
So as too winter times being a pain, maybe we need the twin battery output for this engine. Have you tried starting your engine with a higher powered battery just to see what happens.
Oh here noticed something missing in tried this and this and reads.
ECM uses engine Temp Sensor and Crankshaft Position Sensor Inputs to determine Fuel Injection Quantity in start ups.
Ah wait, Crankshaft Sensor, is there one, there's CKP in Manual. Still to figure this out as Camshaft sensor is there.
I'm looking at Temp Sensor here, what voltage will it pass when its colder, will it make it harder to start....
Just a little Idea...
Goggs.

I looked at it and decided that the honeymoon spiral enjoyed when first released came to an end after 12 months of its release when people started posting their findings. Most said 'go back to Merc' old fashioned lead-acid. What we need, unless each day is a long daily run in the UK, is the nearest to 80 over 800 and it won't fit. I bought the S6/AGM and made it fit and I've never looked back since. I can now leave it 14 days in (-) 5°C and know the thing will start.

Spirals work for some, but not for me - they are twice the price of an 800CCA and its the CCA that does the cranking. The thing with batteries is you need to read the tech pdf's there are different 019AGM Batteries all called 019AGM but with different outputs.

In the UK you have more chance of marrying the Pope than getting useful codes, a quick 'key dance' on all voyagers will give you the P codes but getting useful codes is £97 each and every time at a main stealer. Every fitter I've known, and I know many dozens stares in disbelief when his three grand diagnostic setup gets about the same info as a 'key dance'

Autoenguinity will talk to all the modules except engine and will allow live data and activations.

Launch X431 will talk to all modules and allow live data and actuations

Autocom CDP will talk to all modules and allow live data and actuations

Autoboss doesn't seem to want to talk to anything

Maxidiag doesn't seem to want to talk to anything

Fault codes are useful starting point, but they need to be interpreted correctly together with viewing live data and other test results.

With regards to batteries, I've had good success with the Bosch Silver S5 096 and have fitted this type to a few of my cars - all large diesels. Costco do these for about £60-70 I think. There is a considerable difference in performance between premium and budget batteries.

Regards

Richard

Thanks for replies, they are much appreciated.
With regard battery I have plumped for expensive Exide AGM 50 Ah 1000cca battery which seems to be superb. It cranks for ages which I need at present until this sorted. I had the Bosch battery mentioned before and it lasted 11 months.
As we stand I am having the fuel filter and housing changed with the modified plug on Wednesday as last roll of dice before main stealers. I need a new filter anyway so I think I might as well. After a chat with a parts man at Chrysler he said it is the most common reason for this fault. The housing cracks lets air in when off and leaks fuel into heater plug on top whilst driving causing electrical fault there as well. I also found an interesting thread on another non Chrysler related forum about this issue with this exact fix. There is a guy on the forum who is supposedly looking for people to catalogue their experiences so he can take a class action lawsuit against Chrysler / Fiat as he believes there is a safety issue and a recall is needed. I don't fancy his chances but it did make interesting reading. I will try and post it later.
Thanks and I will keep you updated on Wednesday.

Found that link
Chrysler Grand Voyager 2006, 2.8 CRD Auto. - Engine Cutting Out | Technical matters | Back Room Forum | Honest John

I would have thought that most of us who drive (Grand) Voyagers would have learned all about the fuel heater problem. It is my understanding that Chrysler introduced a revised fuel filter/heater which was what I had fitted to my car. Prior to that, the engine would simply stop under accelleration - i.e. pulling away from a traffic light and stalling in the middle of the intersection as the fuel pump demanded more fuel but sucked air. I doubt that diesel causes the shorting in fact I dont know that there is shorting within the plug the fact it that a crack appears between the pins of the socket allowing air to get into where it is not wanted. If there is any shorting it would not be passive. When you remove the plug from the heater you will smell diesel - if you have the problem.

Apart from that and having watched Richard use it, I would have to say that the Launch X431 is the best diagnostic too I have seen - better indeed than those used by many (non-Chrysler) service organisations...

Now, about Black Death...

To be honest, my 2.5 CRD has only cut out perhaps 4 or 5 times, always injector related (once it blew an injector out, other times was a leaking injector). Switch off, restart, all ok. Apart from the blown one.

Black Death? I'm assuming that's the sludge that can build up/form in the fuel tank?

Since I read about a product used on boats(grotemar?) that you treat fuel with to prevent it, I sometimes use something called Fuel Set. Seems to do the same, and as I make my own biodiesel I put it in the fuel before it goes in the tank.

My home kerosene tank has a black algae-like substance in it if you disturb the bottom, I'm thinking thats the same idea.

- X431 about 2 grand plus another big lump of money for the updates and 'know all net link'
- if it give all 4 sets of full information, in particular the 1 & 0 codes of Voyager CRD's
- too salty a price for a DIY'er, worth the money in the UK for a pro

Attachment 2442

Your friend 'tfb' should put his location and mobile up here. All you get at a main stealer is the printout, tfb doing the same for cheaper money would be a nice earner for him, and welcomed by the UK Voyager CRD users near enough to him to make use of the service.

Cambridgeshire

and anyone is welcome to a code read...no charge

Regards

Richard

- generous - to the user community
- if I lived within distance, and had a problem, I'd go .. .. and pay
- for me however too much distance

I do travel to London most nights, if that's any help

Regards

Richard

Right,Black Death is the name Mercedes owners gave to the problem of injectors being siezed in position by carbon and half burned diesel settling and solidifying all around the place; in the vicinity of the Injectors - the term has since been adopted by pretty much everyone else, at least as far as diesel injection goes. I saw an injector today that would not come out; the hot diesel and exhaust fumes had caused disimilar metal "fretting" or corrosion along with carbon buildup that pretty much bonded it in place. In the end, re-bar was welded to the top of the injector and it was attached to a hoist. The car was hanging from the injector for two days!! It came out in the end but is now an expensive souvenir, not an injector. If you have any injector leakage of combustion products from the combustion chamber, best get it dealt with quickly.

For some reason, I can envisage a line-up of Voyagers on Richard's street! You are in safe hands and might even get a real cup of tea - now that's service for you!

Different black death to what I was thinking, ours suffered from it (exhaust fumes inside the car, tick tick tick from under bonnet and loads of mess when you remove the engine cover).
Fixed it when the timing belt went and all the injectors had to come out anyways.

Had to change one a couple of times since, and theres currently a slight leak from one that I've just not got round to doing yet.

Hi, if your offer is still open I have a 2.5 diesel that refuses to start. Injectors where backleaking and I changed them, new fuel filter, tried easy start (burns off and then cuts out).
Could really do with someone to plug car into computer and check it out. (happy to pay!)
i'm in North London, can u help?
Thanks
Alan

Hi speedysp:

What on earth is easy start and what are you doing with it?

Mike (vrc8883)

- pure explosive Naptha
- squirt it in the air intake

No Start.
 

The Australians have got a better name for Easy Start...No I'm not going to say it.
Goggs.

Injector removal tool.
 

Bloody hell, see it to believe it, removing a CRD injector with what looks like a Submarine Periscope or Post hammer. Found it on You Tube under Chrysler CRD Engine then starts with Injektor.
They first take the top of the injector, fiddly bits removed with a magnet. Screw a heavy duty bit into the injector. Attach this shaft with handles and heavy centre on it. Two men stand on engine and engine lifts with the banging. Oooch.
Scotsman4th would like that..
Goggs

So, if you squirt some of that stuff into the intake it is ignoring the fuel system completely and running on "contaminated air" or whatever the Australians may call it?

My first check would be fuel pressure - the ECU only allows the injectors to work once there is a given rail fuel pressure. There is a pressure sensor. But also there is a pressure pump to be considered too. Richard has the OBD reader to sort it out and I expect he should be online before too long, in fact I will see him tomorrow. I suppose the key/imobiliser system is OK?

Hi Alan
Sorry been a bit busy lately and haven't had time to get on the forums.

I can stop by you on Sunday night probably about 9ish, a code read will take about 10mins.

PM me your details

Regards
Richard

Richard. Can't send pm. Havent been registered for long enough. If u send me a pm I can hopefully reply. Thanks. Alan

It's called... START YOU BA$TARD! :-) Lol

Using BG244 in the fuel helps a lot! As does the Archoil products like 6200 ect...:)

rats...can't send you a PM either. try me on oneshot7867895@gmail.com

Also didn't realise it was a bank holiday on Monday, so it'll be monday night and not Sunday

Regards

Richard

While not the original posters problem, I did manage to diagnose Alan's Voyager down to the ECU. It was giving error codes for the sensor reference voltages and the previous owner had cut the wire that feeds the ECU relay in the ipm.
A second hand ecu, bcm, skreem, lock set and key got it running.

Shame I can't reprogram skreems or ecus

Regards
Richard

- one set of objective feedback helps thousands, thanks Richie

Ohhhh, I didn't say that...Was it Ya or You...Come to think of it...

Goggs...