Of interest to those getting flat batteries.
#51
09-05-2017, 04:02 PM
Group size 237 is marine isn't it, in which case it will struggle to start a 2.8 CRD, you will need closer to 800(+) than the 600(-).
The X2's @ 900(+) might hack it in a UKcrdGV but a standard 600CCA will need regular hours per day/week to stay charged up here in the UK and this infrequent use is the real issue with these vans.
Leedsman has not been around for a good long while since going to look after his brother and the charge rate debacle is solved in the UK version of the diesel EUROVAN with the batteryMOD as initially outlined by Leedsman and now refined. Take care & best wishes Keith.
The X2's @ 900(+) might hack it in a UKcrdGV but a standard 600CCA will need regular hours per day/week to stay charged up here in the UK and this infrequent use is the real issue with these vans.
Leedsman has not been around for a good long while since going to look after his brother and the charge rate debacle is solved in the UK version of the diesel EUROVAN with the batteryMOD as initially outlined by Leedsman and now refined. Take care & best wishes Keith.
#52
09-09-2017, 01:22 PM
Reread!
Reread!
I said size27 or 27F which is quite a large battery for a car or light truck, it was verycommon in Canada-US when large gas engines such as 6 litres were common. Startedmine in very cold weather though normally I’d want a heater of battery, blockwater, or oil to minimize engine wear.
You’re offonto something completely different.
Note thatdeep cycle will wear out quickly when used for starting, it isn’t intended for thefast output of starter draw. (OTOH, a starting battery will wear out quickly ifdischarged a long way repeatedly as in an auxiliary use without constantrecharging, that’s what “deep cycle” technology is for though don’t overdo them.)
The personapparently got along with his hack, I am suspicious of that specific vehiclebut if it appears to work he’s happy (I doubt he would worry about shorterbattery life).
I said size27 or 27F which is quite a large battery for a car or light truck, it was verycommon in Canada-US when large gas engines such as 6 litres were common. Startedmine in very cold weather though normally I’d want a heater of battery, blockwater, or oil to minimize engine wear.
You’re offonto something completely different.
Note thatdeep cycle will wear out quickly when used for starting, it isn’t intended for thefast output of starter draw. (OTOH, a starting battery will wear out quickly ifdischarged a long way repeatedly as in an auxiliary use without constantrecharging, that’s what “deep cycle” technology is for though don’t overdo them.)
The personapparently got along with his hack, I am suspicious of that specific vehiclebut if it appears to work he’s happy (I doubt he would worry about shorterbattery life).
#53
09-09-2017, 01:23 PM
As for not charging regularly, yes batteries will self-discharge with time, deep-cycleperhaps somewhat faster than starting type, that reduces their charged capacity. (“De-sulfidation” may or may not restore capacity.) That’s adifferent scenario than I understand the modifier had, I don’t recall if he wasvulnerable to short trips not fully recharging the battery. One method in theinfrequent use scenario is a trickle charger (very low output current),preferably one that senses battery condition and shuts off.
A subtlety with batteries is detail chemistry tweaks, such as used decades ago in Canadaand US to reduce water consumption – that changes the battery voltage by a few tenths, which either requires more charging voltage or less to avoid over-charging (I forget, it can be looked up). Deep cycle is another chemistry tweak. (A bit of cadmium or such is added to plate lead to alter characteristics.)
Correctionto my typing:
A subtlety with batteries is detail chemistry tweaks, such as used decades ago in Canadaand US to reduce water consumption – that changes the battery voltage by a few tenths, which either requires more charging voltage or less to avoid over-charging (I forget, it can be looked up). Deep cycle is another chemistry tweak. (A bit of cadmium or such is added to plate lead to alter characteristics.)
Correctionto my typing:
- AGM is a common name for the battery technology using a small amount of electrode in apouch, it is not the “gel” type battery used in motorcycles. If I had a dieselin cold weather I’d use it.
- I ofc ourse meant “tested” not ‘rested” for looking at system voltage in hot weather.
Last edited by keithsketchley; 09-09-2017 at 01:26 PM.
#54
09-10-2017, 02:08 PM
Buy a better battery
Why not just buy a better battery , I bought an Optima in 2011 and my glowplugs is not working .
On a cold morning -15 to -18deg.C. it's not very good cooperation to start but becourse of this battery I can turn it over 10 times if I like and crank speed dos not slow down.
My charging voltage is also a bit low mabye 13,8V meassure with a Fluke 87
and it's not a problem .This low charging is common among Mopar's. Did you notis how long the bulbs last ??
Somtimes I don't even change headlight bulb's between MOT. on every other car bulb's only last 3-6 months & we drive with headlights on in daytime.
On a cold morning -15 to -18deg.C. it's not very good cooperation to start but becourse of this battery I can turn it over 10 times if I like and crank speed dos not slow down.
My charging voltage is also a bit low mabye 13,8V meassure with a Fluke 87
and it's not a problem .This low charging is common among Mopar's. Did you notis how long the bulbs last ??Somtimes I don't even change headlight bulb's between MOT. on every other car bulb's only last 3-6 months & we drive with headlights on in daytime.
#55
01-06-2018, 11:24 AM
Can't do this on late-model RG's
I've not been impressed with the way the battery is being charged on my Grand Voyager. Here is a practical and easy way to alter it -- no messing with the alternator.
It consists of inserting a 33K0 (33,000ohm) half or one watt simple carbon film type resistor (worth about 10p.) in series with the live 5volt lead to the "cold battery sensor" mounted under the battery tray. On my GV, the leads are easily accessible coming out from under the battery tray, and on mine are colored blue and brown. The blue is the earthy one, the brown is the 'live' at around 5volt. I just used a small connector block to do the job. The circuit is "dead" at ign. off, there's no need to disconnect anything. Cut the brown lead, strip back and insert into a small connector block of the 2A. type. Fit the 33K0 resistor on the other side of the connector block so the resistor becomes in series with the brown lead.
Caution: These colors are on MY diesel GV., they MAY be different on yours! But the sensor is easy to find, just slip your hand under the battery tray.
Leedsman.
It consists of inserting a 33K0 (33,000ohm) half or one watt simple carbon film type resistor (worth about 10p.) in series with the live 5volt lead to the "cold battery sensor" mounted under the battery tray. On my GV, the leads are easily accessible coming out from under the battery tray, and on mine are colored blue and brown. The blue is the earthy one, the brown is the 'live' at around 5volt. I just used a small connector block to do the job. The circuit is "dead" at ign. off, there's no need to disconnect anything. Cut the brown lead, strip back and insert into a small connector block of the 2A. type. Fit the 33K0 resistor on the other side of the connector block so the resistor becomes in series with the brown lead.
Caution: These colors are on MY diesel GV., they MAY be different on yours! But the sensor is easy to find, just slip your hand under the battery tray.
Leedsman.
I thought - I'll do this to my 2007 GV 2.8CRD. So, I pull out the battery, there's the temperature sensor. But... there's nothing plugged in! I removed the battery tray, and had a good look - no hanging wires! In other words, in more recent ones they simply did not fit the cable. So no voltage-augmenting hack for me!
#56
07-05-2019, 01:46 PM
Measurements
Hi!
So, our last Swedish winter was frustrating with a 3 year old Bosch S4 009 battery that was in itself working well, but not in the 2007 Grand Voyager 2.8 CRD. With this very thread in mind, I figured I'd document some measurements while doing some testing to see how high a voltage I could scare the alternator to produce. I did swap the alternator for a brand new one (not Mopar original, but almost...) a year ago. It said it would produce 14.7 V, but with the battery temperature sensor it only gave me 13.6 V this nice summer afternoon (22 C outside, some sun warming the engine compartment only a bit). So I tried some fixed resistors as a replacement for the sensor but soon realized a potentiometer (variable resistor) was required.
Initial findings:
- If you remove the temperature sensor, the battery is charged at some 13.7 V (as mentioned above and verified by me). This seems to be a default setting when the system realizes the sensor is gone.
- The sensor is an NTC type, that increases the resistance as temperature lowers (and vice versa of course)
- The sensor measured at 9.2 k ohm when removed, at which time it was at around 25 degrees Celsius
- If heated with running water (some 50 C), the resistance dropped to some 5 k ohm, when cooled to an unknown temperature (some cooling spray), it rose to 15 k.
- The engine needs to run at a slightly higher RPM than idle, say 1200 rpm, in order to produce a stable charging voltage. Note that higher RPMs above that won't give you any higher charging voltage.
So, I used a 100 k ohm potentiometer and measured the charging voltage while turning it. I soon saw that at some 70 k ohms and above, the voltage topped out at 14.7 V. I also measured the voltage over the resistor, and with the pot at 70 k, it read 4.5 V. Since the alternator will only produce max 14.7 V and I have a battery that likes 14.8 V, I will go ahead and install a resistor combination measuring 60 k ohms in series with the sensor. That will reduce the charging voltage on hot summer days, especially if stuck in traffic as the engine compartment will heat up more at those times. This is because the 60 k ohms resistor plus some 5-6 k in the sensor when hot will lower the charging voltage a tad. Anything colder than 25 C will give you max charging voltage. You can design your own 60 k ohm resistor by connecting one 100 k and one 150 k resistor in parallel. Those values are widely available, but 60 k is not since it isn't in the E12 (or even E24) series. The power requirement is about 0.3 mW, so more or less no resistor manufactured to date will warm up even the slightest.
My only concern is how the sensor will behave under normal conditions, like driving above 40 km/h at some 25 C. I think the battery will remain cool and charge at 14.7 V. The only situation I would expect to cause a lower charging voltage would be if the battery is being charged heavily, like if you emptied it by accident by leaving the interior lights on and had to jump start it. In that case it may be a good thing not to charge it at the max 14.7 V until it cools down anyway. The voltage drop would be in in the order of 0.1-0.5 V I expect, so it may not be much of a protection circuit, but something at least.
The main benefit will of course be that the battery gets a charging voltage suitable for it under most circumstances. More power (and light) in the halogen low beam lights due to the higher voltage is welcome as well. I have retrofitted 50 W xenon H7 bulbs in the full beam lights (marvellous!), and they will not be affected since their regulators will accept a wide voltage input. Bulb life may be shortened, but that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Thanks everyone, in particular Leedsman, for pointing me in this direction!
/Fredrik
Update: I said: "I have retrofitted 50 W xenon H7 bulbs in the full beam lights (marvellous!), and they will not be affected since their regulators will accept a wide voltage input". Yeah, right. The ONE thing I didn't expect any problems was the ONE thing I noticed first... The xenon high beam wouldn't stay on, but flickered at best, unless at absolute engine idle after engine start (as the voltage hadn't picked up just yet). I haven't had the time to figure out why, as they will accept a higher voltage, but I think that with the very high resistor values I use, the alternator will not produce a stable DC voltage. Since it's still summer (almost anyway), I simply disconnected the sensor (and the resistors in serial with it of course), so now I have the default charging voltage. I hope to have a stable solution before wither!
So, our last Swedish winter was frustrating with a 3 year old Bosch S4 009 battery that was in itself working well, but not in the 2007 Grand Voyager 2.8 CRD. With this very thread in mind, I figured I'd document some measurements while doing some testing to see how high a voltage I could scare the alternator to produce. I did swap the alternator for a brand new one (not Mopar original, but almost...) a year ago. It said it would produce 14.7 V, but with the battery temperature sensor it only gave me 13.6 V this nice summer afternoon (22 C outside, some sun warming the engine compartment only a bit). So I tried some fixed resistors as a replacement for the sensor but soon realized a potentiometer (variable resistor) was required.
Initial findings:
- If you remove the temperature sensor, the battery is charged at some 13.7 V (as mentioned above and verified by me). This seems to be a default setting when the system realizes the sensor is gone.
- The sensor is an NTC type, that increases the resistance as temperature lowers (and vice versa of course)
- The sensor measured at 9.2 k ohm when removed, at which time it was at around 25 degrees Celsius
- If heated with running water (some 50 C), the resistance dropped to some 5 k ohm, when cooled to an unknown temperature (some cooling spray), it rose to 15 k.
- The engine needs to run at a slightly higher RPM than idle, say 1200 rpm, in order to produce a stable charging voltage. Note that higher RPMs above that won't give you any higher charging voltage.
So, I used a 100 k ohm potentiometer and measured the charging voltage while turning it. I soon saw that at some 70 k ohms and above, the voltage topped out at 14.7 V. I also measured the voltage over the resistor, and with the pot at 70 k, it read 4.5 V. Since the alternator will only produce max 14.7 V and I have a battery that likes 14.8 V, I will go ahead and install a resistor combination measuring 60 k ohms in series with the sensor. That will reduce the charging voltage on hot summer days, especially if stuck in traffic as the engine compartment will heat up more at those times. This is because the 60 k ohms resistor plus some 5-6 k in the sensor when hot will lower the charging voltage a tad. Anything colder than 25 C will give you max charging voltage. You can design your own 60 k ohm resistor by connecting one 100 k and one 150 k resistor in parallel. Those values are widely available, but 60 k is not since it isn't in the E12 (or even E24) series. The power requirement is about 0.3 mW, so more or less no resistor manufactured to date will warm up even the slightest.
My only concern is how the sensor will behave under normal conditions, like driving above 40 km/h at some 25 C. I think the battery will remain cool and charge at 14.7 V. The only situation I would expect to cause a lower charging voltage would be if the battery is being charged heavily, like if you emptied it by accident by leaving the interior lights on and had to jump start it. In that case it may be a good thing not to charge it at the max 14.7 V until it cools down anyway. The voltage drop would be in in the order of 0.1-0.5 V I expect, so it may not be much of a protection circuit, but something at least.
The main benefit will of course be that the battery gets a charging voltage suitable for it under most circumstances. More power (and light) in the halogen low beam lights due to the higher voltage is welcome as well. I have retrofitted 50 W xenon H7 bulbs in the full beam lights (marvellous!), and they will not be affected since their regulators will accept a wide voltage input. Bulb life may be shortened, but that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Thanks everyone, in particular Leedsman, for pointing me in this direction!
/Fredrik
Update: I said: "I have retrofitted 50 W xenon H7 bulbs in the full beam lights (marvellous!), and they will not be affected since their regulators will accept a wide voltage input". Yeah, right. The ONE thing I didn't expect any problems was the ONE thing I noticed first... The xenon high beam wouldn't stay on, but flickered at best, unless at absolute engine idle after engine start (as the voltage hadn't picked up just yet). I haven't had the time to figure out why, as they will accept a higher voltage, but I think that with the very high resistor values I use, the alternator will not produce a stable DC voltage. Since it's still summer (almost anyway), I simply disconnected the sensor (and the resistors in serial with it of course), so now I have the default charging voltage. I hope to have a stable solution before wither!
Last edited by VMdiesel; 08-17-2019 at 01:56 PM. Reason: New info
#57
04-14-2024, 07:27 AM
I've not been impressed with the way the battery is being charged on my Grand Voyager. Here is a practical and easy way to alter it -- no messing with the alternator.
1) Measurements over time indicated that initial alternator voltage after starting was 13.9volt. This dropped to 13.4 after a few minutes. This was consistent over time, and results in the battery being consistently under charged for most modern batteries. Measurements were done on a professional "Fluke" digital multimeter. Trust me, it's accurate.
2) Since most batteries sold over the counter are either lead-acid-calcium, or lead-acid-calcium-calcium, these type of batteries are undercharged at the above alternator voltages. Possibly these voltages are intended for some other type of battery.
Fortunately, there is an easy way to raise the charge voltage to 14.4volt without over stressing anything, as the design of the system is intended to do this -- I refer to the maker's own design here, not mine. 14.4volt is the 'old' charging voltage as used to be.
It consists of inserting a 33K0 (33,000ohm) half or one watt simple carbon film type resistor (worth about 10p.) in series with the live 5volt lead to the "cold battery sensor" mounted under the battery tray. On my GV, the leads are easily accessible coming out from under the battery tray, and on mine are colored blue and brown. The blue is the earthy one, the brown is the 'live' at around 5volt. I just used a small connector block to do the job. The circuit is "dead" at ign. off, there's no need to disconnect anything. Cut the brown lead, strip back and insert into a small connector block of the 2A. type. Fit the 33K0 resistor on the other side of the connector block so the resistor becomes in series with the brown lead.
Caution: These colors are on MY diesel GV., they MAY be different on yours! But the sensor is easy to find, just slip your hand under the battery tray.
Explanation:--
The voltage used to charge any type of lead-acid battery is crucially important even down to a few tenths of a volt.
Types of lead acid batteries:
"Wet" type: The acid is visible and can be topped up with distilled water. These were charged at 14.4volt from the alternator in the old days by a regulator either inside or outside the alternator. Wet batteries are rare on domestic cars nowadays.
"Sealed" type: Or sometimes called no-maintenance. The proper charge voltage here is anybody's guess. Some are vented, some aren't. Some only vent under pressure by blowing out a rubber plug. They work by catalyzing the hydrogen and oxygen produced under gassing back to water. Thusly the SG (specific gravity) of the acid comes back to 1.28 at full charge.
"Calcium" type: The positive lead dioxide grid is laced with about 1% of calcium. This improves the self-discharge condition markedly.
"Calcium-calcium" type. Both the positive lead dioxide grid AND the spongy lead negative plates are calcium laced, reducing the self-discharge condition even more. Both the calcium types are advised by the battery manufacturers to be charged at a higher voltage, 14.8 to 15volt is advised for calcium-calcium types, 14.5 for calcium types.
The alternator is not controlled the "old" way by a separate or included regulator. Nowadays, and certainly on Chrysler motors, the field/rotor current to the slip rings is provided by the microprocessor system, and is pulse-width-modulated to control the effective current to the rotor.
Therefore, altering the cold-battery sensor to improve the charging voltage does not make either the alternator or the charge-control system do anything it wasn't intended to do in the original design. In this design, if the sensor (which is a simple -ve. temp. coefficient resistor) goes o/c, the micro defaults to exactly 14volt. And it does, I've measured it.
It's crucially important to get the charge voltage right for the type of lead-acid battery you have fitted -- it's not "fit and forget". If you don't get the charge voltage right, the result will be a short battery life, made worse by short-trips. Add to that the parasitic battery drain, and you have the dreaded "heavy-click" no-start when you come to use the car after a few days rest.
Finally, there is a new type of lead-acid battery coming. It's a lead-carbon containing a supercapacitor built in. They are already being called "supercabatteries". It is said they are capable of thousands of charge-discharge cycle.
Leedsman.
1) Measurements over time indicated that initial alternator voltage after starting was 13.9volt. This dropped to 13.4 after a few minutes. This was consistent over time, and results in the battery being consistently under charged for most modern batteries. Measurements were done on a professional "Fluke" digital multimeter. Trust me, it's accurate.
2) Since most batteries sold over the counter are either lead-acid-calcium, or lead-acid-calcium-calcium, these type of batteries are undercharged at the above alternator voltages. Possibly these voltages are intended for some other type of battery.
Fortunately, there is an easy way to raise the charge voltage to 14.4volt without over stressing anything, as the design of the system is intended to do this -- I refer to the maker's own design here, not mine. 14.4volt is the 'old' charging voltage as used to be.
It consists of inserting a 33K0 (33,000ohm) half or one watt simple carbon film type resistor (worth about 10p.) in series with the live 5volt lead to the "cold battery sensor" mounted under the battery tray. On my GV, the leads are easily accessible coming out from under the battery tray, and on mine are colored blue and brown. The blue is the earthy one, the brown is the 'live' at around 5volt. I just used a small connector block to do the job. The circuit is "dead" at ign. off, there's no need to disconnect anything. Cut the brown lead, strip back and insert into a small connector block of the 2A. type. Fit the 33K0 resistor on the other side of the connector block so the resistor becomes in series with the brown lead.
Caution: These colors are on MY diesel GV., they MAY be different on yours! But the sensor is easy to find, just slip your hand under the battery tray.
Explanation:--
The voltage used to charge any type of lead-acid battery is crucially important even down to a few tenths of a volt.
Types of lead acid batteries:
"Wet" type: The acid is visible and can be topped up with distilled water. These were charged at 14.4volt from the alternator in the old days by a regulator either inside or outside the alternator. Wet batteries are rare on domestic cars nowadays.
"Sealed" type: Or sometimes called no-maintenance. The proper charge voltage here is anybody's guess. Some are vented, some aren't. Some only vent under pressure by blowing out a rubber plug. They work by catalyzing the hydrogen and oxygen produced under gassing back to water. Thusly the SG (specific gravity) of the acid comes back to 1.28 at full charge.
"Calcium" type: The positive lead dioxide grid is laced with about 1% of calcium. This improves the self-discharge condition markedly.
"Calcium-calcium" type. Both the positive lead dioxide grid AND the spongy lead negative plates are calcium laced, reducing the self-discharge condition even more. Both the calcium types are advised by the battery manufacturers to be charged at a higher voltage, 14.8 to 15volt is advised for calcium-calcium types, 14.5 for calcium types.
The alternator is not controlled the "old" way by a separate or included regulator. Nowadays, and certainly on Chrysler motors, the field/rotor current to the slip rings is provided by the microprocessor system, and is pulse-width-modulated to control the effective current to the rotor.
Therefore, altering the cold-battery sensor to improve the charging voltage does not make either the alternator or the charge-control system do anything it wasn't intended to do in the original design. In this design, if the sensor (which is a simple -ve. temp. coefficient resistor) goes o/c, the micro defaults to exactly 14volt. And it does, I've measured it.
It's crucially important to get the charge voltage right for the type of lead-acid battery you have fitted -- it's not "fit and forget". If you don't get the charge voltage right, the result will be a short battery life, made worse by short-trips. Add to that the parasitic battery drain, and you have the dreaded "heavy-click" no-start when you come to use the car after a few days rest.
Finally, there is a new type of lead-acid battery coming. It's a lead-carbon containing a supercapacitor built in. They are already being called "supercabatteries". It is said they are capable of thousands of charge-discharge cycle.
Leedsman.
The windscreen washer pump on my 2006 Grand Voyager either pumps to the rear screen or the front depending on what polarity is fed to the washer pump. It worked fine when I turn on the ignition, but after I start the engine and engage Drive it usually fails after a few seconds.....whether requesting demand for front or rear screens! Turn engine off and reengage ignition and all works fine again. I worked out that it seemed to fail when the alternator fully engaged to charge the battery. I noticed that if I turned on the headlights and heated rear windscreen etc this pulled the voltage down by circa 0.3 Volt and hey presto the washer pump started working again! So I backed out the modification and instead of using a 33KOhm resistor, I replaced with two 33KOhm resistors in parallel (16.5KOhm) to ensure the charging voltage doesn’t exceed 14.3V. Now washers perform fine! So I suspect the BCM is sensitive to over voltage….who knew!!!??🤷🏻♂️
Hope this helps others!
Peter
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08-15-2013 05:17 PM
